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Saturday, June 03, 2006

Two questions I was asked over Shavuos

If anyone has a source to answer these, I'd appreciate it:

a) If a person redeems a S'deh Achuzah of his relative, does the original owner get it back from the relative who redeemed it immediately, or only at Yovel?

b) If an Eved Ivri wants to stay past his six years until Yovel, but the master has no desire to keep him, can the master say no?

18 Comments:

Blogger Gil Student said...

Here's a question I was asked: Is there bishul akum on an even kena'ani, who was toveled and must keep the lavin including kashrus?

7:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Since bishul akum is a gezarah due to chasnus and a regular yid who isn't an eved ivri may not marry an eved cnani I would assume the issur bishul akum applies.P.S. Rabbbi Gil ii is nice to see your precsence on such a yeshivser blog.

8:29 AM  
Anonymous only shemah said...

Bari;The gem. kiddushin 22a says "eved ohev es rabbo v'rabbo aino o'havo aino nirtzah".The rambam H. ovadim 3:11 also paskens that the oden isn't required to keep the eved against his will after 6 years.My question is;may an oden expell an eved during the 6 years?The rambam 2;11 says that if the oden is moichel he must write a shtar sihcrur but doesn't say the eved must accept it.

9:41 AM  
Blogger chardal said...

only shema,

The Rambam 2:17 says that there is a mitzva to tell him to go when the time of the release of the eved arrives. Such a declaration by the owner apperantly does not require a shtar.

Perhaps such a declaration of the owner is sufficient to break the relationship even in the case where the eved does not want to be released.

10:28 AM  
Blogger chardal said...

Only shema, sorry I didn't see that you asked a different question.

Could not the master release him during the 6 years though giraon kesef which does not require a shtar. Sure it would cost him, but I don't see why that would not work.

10:33 AM  
Blogger chardal said...

Never mind about the last one. Apperantly, the owner can not be mochel on the money (2:13) and must write a shtar if he is to release him within the 6 years.

I am sure he could use arma and get someone else to pay off the eved. Also, could he designate a chatzer for the eved and would such a chatzer be koneh the shtar?

10:47 AM  
Anonymous only shemah said...

Chardel-I'm not sure what you mean by get someone to pay off the eved.It is a machlokes in the roshnim if one may sell an eved ivri.My quetion was/is since during the 6 years the oden's relinquishing his rights on the eved is a form of mechilah which in this case is a form of being makneh may the eved refuse to be koneh?If the eved prefers to be an eved, ain chovin l'odom shlo b'fonov.Additionaly since the oden made an agreement to buy him I'm not sure he may back out against the eveds will.

10:59 AM  
Blogger chardal said...

Chardel-I'm not sure what you mean by get someone to pay off the eved.

The Rambam does not mention that a shtar is nesecary when someone is podeh an eved ivri. This is something that is a mitzva on his family (and realy every Jew) (avadim 2:7). The money is given over to the master and presumably the eved goes free as soon as the money is given.

It is a machlokes in the roshnim if one may sell an eved ivri.

I am not talking about selling him but about redeaming him.

My quetion was/is since during the 6 years the oden's relinquishing his rights on the eved is a form of mechilah which in this case is a form of being makneh may the eved refuse to be koneh?

So the Rambam in 2:13 says that the master can not be mochel the money needed for the pidyon. He can only write a shtar. What I was suggesting is that he give the money to a third party who would in turn redeam the eved.

11:27 AM  
Blogger Bari said...

Thanks for your answer, only shema. I hadn't had a chance to look around for that one at all. I was too busy with the first question :)

11:38 AM  
Blogger Bari said...

Regarding your question, it would seem that if we are talking about the Shtar Shichrur of Mechilas Giraon Kesef - it does not work against the will of the Eved, but the regular Shtar Shichrur of the Eved Ivri which is similar to that of the Eved Kenaani - does work B'Al Korcho. See Minchas Chinuch Mitzvah 42, Machon Yerushalaym ed. pg. 226 (Seif Katan 19).

11:55 AM  
Anonymous yehuda said...

only shemah-your whole premise that sichrur eved is a form of kinyan and not just mechila seems incorrect.Tosfos kiddushin 16a asks and explains why not and tosfos sanhedrin 6a says clearly that mechila/sicrur of an eved is not a kinyan.Moreover I think your whole question about an oden expelling an eved can be answered by the sugya yevomas 48a "amar shmuel h'mafkir ovdoy yotzeh l'charus v'aino tzorich get sichrur"Although thah sugya is talking about eved cannani tosfos (there)clearly applies that halacha to eved ivri and explains the reason we don't say hefker as one of the kinyoney eved is because it is not a kinyan; the oden is merely being "misalek" his ownership.Surely an eved can't protest the oden doing so.All the above is only in tosfos perhaps other rishonim learn otherwise hence the need for bari's mareh mokom that he is enlightening us with.

12:30 PM  
Blogger Bari said...

What I wrote earlier isn't entirely accurate. The Minchas Chinuch (a bit earlier, pg. 223) essentially holds that there are two types of Shtaros one can give to an Eved Ivri - Shtar Kinyan and Shtar Shichrur. The Shtar Kinyan does not have Dinim of Lishmah etc., but does need Daas of the Eved, whereas the Shtar Shichrur, which is similar to that of the Eved Kenaani - needs Lishmah, but not Daas of the Eved.

2:36 PM  
Blogger Bari said...

Gil,

See Yoreh Deah 113:4 with the Nosei Kelim.

2:36 PM  
Anonymous only shemah said...

Yehuda-You are correct with tosfos but I don't think the rambam learns like him since (1)He only brings the din of mafkir avdoy by eved cannani in 8:13(2)he paskens like Rav Yochonon that mafkir ovdo TZORICH shtar sicrur.Chardel and Bari-Thank you.

3:18 PM  
Blogger chardal said...

Chardel

It's chardal.

Either mustard or Chareidi Leumi. depending on wether you like me or hate me. :)

7:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh.I thought you had such a fascination with the sugya of chardal in bova basra that you named yourself after it.

10:24 AM  
Anonymous Sochatchover said...

Regarding your first question -- the Avnei Nezer, Yoreh Deiah 460, says it's a machlokes. According to Rabbeinu Bachye and the Abarbanel on Vayikra 25:25, the field goes back to the owner immediately. According to Rav Shimshon MiSens in his commentary on Toras Kohanim, and according to the Maharit, Kiddushin 21a, the redeemer keeps it until yovel

6:45 AM  
Blogger Bari said...

Thanks a million, Sochatchover!

7:39 AM  

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