Tuesday, May 23, 2006

Paintball in Halachah

Is it OK for a group of nice Jewish boys to go paintballing?

The answer would seem to depend on how to understand a Rambam (Hilchos Chovel u'Mazik 5:1) -

א אסור לאדם לחבול, בין בעצמו בין בחברו. ולא החובל בלבד, אלא כל המכה אדם כשר מישראל--בין קטן בין גדול, בין איש בין אישה, דרך ניציון--הרי זה עובר בלא תעשה,

"It is forbidden to injure (i.e. inflict a wound), whether himself of his friend. And not only one who injures, but anyone who hits a fellow observant Jew - whether an adult or a minor, man or woman, in a (belligerent? quarrelsome?) manner - has violated a negative commandment"
( Most manuscripts of the Rambam have this version. The Sefer Mitzvos Gadol (Asin, 70) has it as "Derech Bizayon" or "in a degrading manner")
There are a number of interpretations as to what this phrase in the Rambam means:
a) The Shu"t Maharalbac"h (Kuntress HaSemichah, Kuntress 1 s.v. "V'Od Ani Omer") understands the Rambam to be excluding a circumstance where the person upon whom the blow is being inflicted has agreed to it.
Other Acharonim also agree with the position that there is no violation of this Aveira if the victim is Mochel (Minchas Chinuch Mitzvah 48, Turei Even to Megilla 28a).
b) However, Rav Yerucham Fishel Perlau in his comments on the Sefer HaMitzvos of Rav Saadya Gaon, in a lengthy refutation, does not accept this reading of the Rambam. He understands the Rambam to be excluding situations where there is explicit sanction of hitting, such as a father to a son, a Rebbe to a Talmid, or in order to heal the person. He does not accept the permissibility of inflicting a wound or hitting where the victim consents.
Concurring with the prohibition being in force, even in this circumstance of Mechilla, are:
Shu"t Chavos Ya'ir (163), Shulchan Aruch HaRav (Hilchos Nizkei Guf VaNefesh 4), Chazon Ish (Choshen Mishpat 19:5) and Igros Moshe (Orach Chaim III:78).

It would seem to follow that the permissibilty of paintball playing should depend on this Machlokes Acharonim whether Mechilla works to obviate the prohibition of hitting another person. Considering that this is a Torah prohibition, presumably one would have to be stringent in this matter. Additionally, this may not be a clear-cut Mechilla. No one goes out there wanting to get hit in the chest with a pellet. While there is an understanding that this may very well happen, I am not certain that putting yourself in a situation where you know you may get hit is analogous to telling someone it is OK to hit you.

c) Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igros Moshe Choshen Mishpat II:66) has a responsa regarding the permissibilty of a girl undergoing plastic surgery in order to enhance her appearance. In that Teshuva, Rav Moshe seems to have a third approach to the defintion of "Derech Nitzayon UBizayon". Rav Moshe allows the girl to undergo this surgery, since the purpose of the surgery does not have any belligerent overtones. On the contrary, it is meant to enhance her appearance.
Rav Moshe proves this from the behavior or Rav Chisda, brought in Bava Kama 91, that when he would go among thorns he would lift up his cloak and allow the thorns to scratch his legs, saying that his body would heal, whereas his clothing would not. Since, presumably, Rav Chisda's walking among the thorns was for some constructive need, that removes the "Derech Nitzayon Ubizayon" element of the prohibition of injuring oneself (or others).
While Tosafos to Bava Kama 91b (s.v. Ella) prohibit injuring oneself even "Letzorech", Rav Moshe avers that this is only in regard to things that are done with the intent of self-inflicted pain, ( similar to tearing garments over a deceased relative, where the purpose is to cause yourself to suffer more over the loss), not where the wound is knowingly inflicted, but the person would prefer that there be no pain at all, as with Rav Chisda.

It is not clear to me whether shooting paint pellets at another person, in the context of a paintball game, would fall under Derech Nitzayon Ubizayon according to Rav Moshe:
a) Is this a "Tzorech", or at least a defintion of purpose other than wound infliction, which renders it non-belligerent but "all in fun"?
b) Is the game in and of itself of a belligerent nature?
c) Is there a bit more "geshmak" to the game if there is some pain inflicted - rendering the shooting Assur even if we were to consider it a Tzorech?

Share your thoughts!

This post is food for thought - not LeMaase!


Anonymous only shemah said...

It is very difficult for me to post on this topic because I have never seen paintball being played.My first question would be what is the geder of chavala e.g. does it have to cause a wound like by being chovel parents.Also I would question if the manner of the game makes it mutter simalar but not completly like the halacho of someone who was mazik through simchas purim.Great post either way.

3:54 PM  
Blogger Bari said...

only shemah

I have a link on the first line of the post to a description of paintball.

On the point of Chavalah - I think Chovel would be causing a wound, but the Rambam prohibits Hakaah as well.

If it would only be Chavalah - as in a black-and-blue mark in this circumstance - from what I understand it is a Karov LePesik Reisha that if you get hit you will develop a black-and-blue mark. (It's not 100% of the time, but much more often than not. If anyone has a different take on the Metzi'us here - let us know). If that's true, there are contradictions in Mishnah Berurah Hilchos Shabbos regarding Karov LePesik Reisha. (In the Tikkunim UMiluim of the Shemiras Shabbos he has a note (Mavo LeHilchos Shabbos note 47) giving the Mareh Mekomos on that)

Be that as it may, the problem of Hakaah is there.

Isn't Mazik through Simchas Purim because of the Simchas Mitzvah?

Thanks for the thumbs up.

4:07 PM  
Blogger chardal said...

AFAIK most paintball players were pretty think clothing and a helmet so as to avoid bruize marks, that would exclude Chavalah in the majority of cases.

The question is what the geder of Hakaah is (and where the prohibition of Hakaah comes from). It seems like the Rambam says that the component of the hakaa which is assur is the bizayon - I can not imagine that bizayon exists in the context of a paint ball game since all such behaviour is expected by all sides.

The main issue is, does this fit into the category of kirkas which is forbiden for other reasons?

4:13 PM  
Blogger Bari said...

AFAIK most paintball players were pretty think clothing and a helmet so as to avoid bruize marks, that would exclude Chavalah in the majority of cases.

Could be you're right. I just put down what I heard from a high school kid.

The question is what the geder of Hakaah is (and where the prohibition of Hakaah comes from).

What is says - hitting. That hurts, I guess. The source is the same as Chavala - Lo Yosif Pen Yosif.

It seems like the Rambam says that the component of the hakaa which is assur is the bizayon - I can not imagine that bizayon exists in the context of a paint ball game since all such behaviour is expected by all sides.

The whole post is about how the Acharonim define this Rambam. If you hold that it doesn't exempt when there is Mechilla (as many Acharonim, listed in the post, do) so what is expected is not relevant to the Rambam.(Rav Moshe quotes R' Tuvia Goldstein as wanting to distinguish between Hakaah - Assur only if there's Nitzayon/Bizayon, and Chavalah - Assur regardless. RMF disagrees as the source for both is the same.)

The main issue is, does this fit into the category of kirkas which is forbiden for other reasons?

I don't think that's the main issue. How is this different, from that perspective, than playing baseball?

6:22 PM  
Blogger Bari said...

From wikipedia:

Early paintballs were made of glass and filled with indelible oil-based paint, but modern paintballs should easily wash out of most clothing and cause significantly less pain on impact.

Could be things have changed, but I'd still like to know what "significantly less pain" means.

6:47 PM  
Blogger chardal said...

If you hold that it doesn't exempt when there is Mechilla

What I am suggesting is that perhaps the reason hakaa is not permisable even with mechila is because it is a bizayon. much the same way that a parent can not be mochel on kavod when there is bizayon. In other words, maybe mechila does not help for hitting+bizayon but does for hitting without bizayon.

from that perspective, than playing baseball?

The intrinsic violence is the difference. Rav Soloveitchic for example forbade going to or watching boxing maches because he classified them as a kirkas. I think there might be room to say that paintball falls into that same category.

6:50 PM  
Blogger Bari said...

What I am suggesting is that perhaps the reason hakaa is not permisable even with mechila is because it is a bizayon. much the same way that a parent can not be mochel on kavod when there is bizayon. In other words, maybe mechila does not help for hitting+bizayon but does for hitting without bizayon.

There's nothing here that would make it non-Bizayon other than the context of everyone accepting it, i.e. Mechilla. If I would shoot a paint pellet at you when not in that context - you wouldn't like it a bit. You have to give a definition of Nitzayon UBizayon, and back it up in Acharonim, outside of everyone accepting it, to get your suggestion off the ground.

I hear what you're saying about Kirkas. But, if you are saying it's a violent sport as in the category of boxing (the wikipedia article didn't seem to think so, though it seems to be written by an avid paintballer) - then I would think that even according to Rav Moshe it would be Derech Nitzayon, like a boxing match, and would be Assur from that perspective anyhow.

7:07 PM  
Blogger Bari said...

R' Gil Student kindly sent me a link to some sample pages from "The Right And The Good", by Rabbi Daniel Z. Feldman, regarding this Rambam and Mechilla.


If someone could tip me off how to turn that into a link, I'd appreciate it.

7:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

try tinyurl.com

this will work:

4:16 AM  
Anonymous steve said...

highlight it, copy it and then past it into your browser and then hit enter.

6:39 AM  
Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

I'd think that Boxing/Kirkas is different than Paintball in that in B/K (not short for "Brooklyn") the pain and damage the opponents are doing is for the amusement of the audience. In Paintball, whatever pain and/or bruises may result are a side-effect of the participation. There aren't onlookers cheering and waiting to see someone get hurt like there are in Boxing.

7:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My 19-year old son went paintballing with his friends over Chol Hamoed. This was not his first time with this activity. He reported that getting hit with a paintball can sting a bit and that even with thick clothing, it can cause a bruise. I make the following observations, one can make their own conclusions:
1) despite whatever pain seems to (possibly) come from this activity, the boys keep going back to do it. This was not the first time my son did this activity with his friends (all fine yeshiva kids) and they are all still wonderful friends. It would seem that they understand that one can get mildly hurt in the process of this game, but accept it as part of the game. I seem to recall that as a teenager, I took my share of bumps and bruises playing baseball, football, and especially basketball.
2) he told me that he would NEVER play this game if I joined because of the 'wounding' problem. Similarly, his group of friends said they wouldn't play if any of the boys' fathers or rabbeim joined in. So, it seems they understand and acknowledge the risk of causing a bruise in the target.

I don't think any of them ever asked a sheilah as to the issur v'hetter of this game, though.

7:56 AM  
Blogger Bari said...


Sounds right.


Basketball, baseball and football don't have contact with a high-speed projectile as the object of the game.

I'd think it would certainly be Assur with a parent or a Rebbe, as their Mechila, assuming it is some Bizayon here, wouldn't even help. (Although, IIRC, the Minchas Chinuch says Mechilla does work even by a parent, the vast majority of Poskim disagree.)

One of my Talmidim told me his father asked Rav Pam zt"l about paintball and he didn't like it. I don't know what the Lashon was, though.(Not "allowed", "recommended", "a Jewish thing to do"?)

9:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1- is it clear that one would be oveir with a paintball gun? Depending on how accurate and fast the gun is, on the one hand, and the parameters of kocho shel adam and grama, on the other, it's possible that this could be defined as grama. If that's the case, is it clear one would be oveir on lo yosif? It seems that you would most likely be chayyav betashlumin for grama (see BK 50a), but it isn't so obvious that the same is true for the lav.

11:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Im sure RYPP mentions this, but according to those acharonim that understand that if one is mocheil then that is ok, what emerges is an absurd conclusion: one cannot be mocheil the tashlumin since ein adom mocheil al roshei eivarim, but one can be mocheil on the lav?!

11:16 AM  
Blogger Bari said...

AFAIK, using a gun is Kocho. I don't know how the PB gun is structured though. But even if it's Gerama - isn't Gerama BeNezikin Assur just Pattur BeDinei Adam? So Chavalah or Hakaah should also be Assur.

11:27 AM  
Blogger Bari said...

On the other point - does the "Ain Adam Mochel..." rule apply even if it is not Roshei Eivarim, just a plain black-and-blue mark?

A little update - it would seem, regarding my doubt whether the fact that you may get hit constitutes Mechilla, that indeed it is a valid Mechilla. The Tur Choshen Mishpat 421, brought in Shulchan Aruch there Seif 5, brings a case of two people wrestling where one falls on the other and accidentally knocks out his eye. The Rosh paskens that there is no liability to pay there, since the wrestlers know what they are getting into, and that they may fall upon one another in a dangerous way, and they were Mochel each other.

[ In fact, the Bedek HaBayis there says that even if you hold "Ain Adam Mochel Al Roshei Eivarim", you might be Pattur here since one person being Mochel is not the same as two being Mochel each other (perhaps in the latter case there is a stronger Umdana that his Mechilla was meant to be taken seriously)]

All this relates to payment, not violation of the Lav. But the concept of Mechilla when entering a risky situation is set forth in that Halachah.

11:50 AM  
Anonymous yehuda said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11:59 AM  
Blogger Bari said...

I also found this online. I take no responsibility for the content, just linking to it:

12:53 PM  
Anonymous yehuda said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2:39 PM  
Blogger chardal said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:20 PM  
Blogger chardal said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:21 PM  
Blogger chardal said...

To make a link, do the following:

<a href="www.yeshiva.org.il">link text</a>

This will appear like this:

link text

5:22 PM  
Blogger chardal said...

make sure you add http:// before the url or it will not link properly.

5:23 PM  
Blogger ADDeRabbi said...

RAL forbade sports where violence is part and parcel of the sport and not incidental, like boxing (and, IMHO, football). Posted on it here:

6:45 PM  
Blogger Bari said...

Thank you, Chardal.

6:45 PM  
Blogger Bari said...

And thank you too, Adderabbi.

6:49 PM  
Blogger Jameel @ The Muqata said...

Even though I'm late to this thread, allow me to please comment.

As part of routine training for my local yishuv CTU, our unit practices with paintball quite often. (Thought I don't think that playing is the appropriate term).

We paintball professionally with different rules of engagement than civilian versions of the game (ie, you can get shot up to a meter away).

Trust me, it's VERY painful. We come home after 2 days of IDF milluim totally black and blue (with pink and blue splattered all over our uniforms).

Getting shot in the face with a treif geliten bullet isn't thrilling either when it explodes on your face mask and still enters your mouth.

Tachlis, its not fun. But our training is to address pikuach nefesh situations and paintball is one of the most accurate representations of live gunfire available, with a minimum of injury. When you try entering a house to save lives and there are painballs zipping away at you, and you still have to go in anyway...and you know it will hurt...that's about as close as you can simulate live fire.

Hopefully, we'll never need out training.

5:47 AM  
Blogger Bari said...

Thank you and Amen to that!

7:44 AM  
Anonymous The Dovid said...

Hi, hope nobody will mind me commenting late here. Extremely interresting stuff. SOme thoughts/notes:
1. Just to point out, i believe that when the rambam specifies "cosher b'yisroel", it does not mean davka a shomer mitzvos, but is meant to exclude a mumar, or someone who does aveiros simply for the sake of doing an aveirah.

2. About the mechilah thing- you mentionned that perhaps there is no actual consent to being shot. I think this sounds very similar to the issur of gambling (even playing dreidel on chanukah for money, according to nearly everything i've seen about this.) When people gamble, even though everybody knows they could lose, they still don't whole-heartedly agree to the winner taking their money, and it is therefor avak gezeilah. Perhaps this is different, because there is no specific gazeirah of "avak hakaah" or whatever it might theoretically be called.

3. Even according to those who hold that chavalh for the purpose of something constructive (like you mentioned the opinion of R' Moshe), I would be quite doubtful that "having fun" is a valid reason. Perhaps the most obvious reasoning i can think of would be: There are other ways to have fun (as opposed to plastic surgery, where there's no way to do it without cutting up somebody's face.)

5:26 PM  
Blogger Bari said...

the dovid,

1) I think the Rambam means "Es SheYeshno Bichlal Amisecha". Whatever the Geder is for removal from that status, the same would apply.

2) I mentioned that some 10 comments prior. I believe the case of the two wrestlers there is a good parallel.

3) I tend to agree with you. My Safek was more whether there was a need of a definitve positive Tzorech, or "definition of purpose" other than the Hakaah itself.

6:40 PM  
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